July 27, 2011
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The Holy Trinity- question?
Ok, from my last posts on my encounters on religion... this is still confusing times. I can neither accept or deny whether some things that happen are just coincidence or the "mysterious" works of God... I still go to mass and I feel peace and I feel very happy.
But, there is something that has been bugging me and I have briefly brought it up but it's been dismissed. No one can really explain it and just leave it as it is. Which I can't conform to in this sense. I don't understand, there can possibilities but when you bring those up, you're considered wrong but that in itself is not right. I've even brought it up to my mom and sort of confused her and got an answer she wasn't expecting to give and then retracted. I've been doing that a lot to her lately. Mainly because she's gotten more devout and I want to see how her faith is in strength as in belief rather than just blindly following. You know what I'm saying? I believe but I want to know more. I have faith but I seek answers. My mom just follows and does what she's told. Thankfully she didn't join a convent when she was 20 or neither of us siblings would have been born.
So, I usually attend spanish mass with my parents but the last 2 Sundays I've been going to mass earlier and in English, not that it makes a difference but I like earlier, so more free time after. I was listening to the Creed (Oh and I go to Catholic Mass, just in case you even cared)
And was listening to the Nicene Creed:
"We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation, he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come."
(Father, the son and the Holy Spirit)
Ok, so how is it that they're one in the same? I get the holy spirit and being the messenger of God to impregnate a very Virgin Mary but how can God have a son, who is truly himself to suffer and still hold his spot as a ruler, and take away the sins of everybody. Two places at once? Or is it not two places at once but 2 different?

But in the creed it says, " he suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father."

According to my understanding, they're all in the same. It's God and he controls all three which is why it's the Holy Trinity but how are they not the same but they are the same? If they're the same ONE God how can the son and the Father be sitting next to each other. When do they become one? Are they ever one in the same or are they separate? And if they are separate then don't we have more than one God and we believe in the possibility of poly-theism and not just one God how the church is always trying to exclaim. Or if it is truly one God then which one is which and who are we to follow if it's one. Why create different personas?
I'm not trying to bring down anything or even the Christianity religion but how do you explain it? Is it the same concepts in all Christian Sectors? Is Catholicism different?
I'm just trying to make sense of it for my sanity. I know you're probably thinking I shouldn't think of it? But, have you thought of it before in your quest to answers? Or never questioned and just believe what you're told? If you just follow how do you even know you're following the correct path and that what you were thought wasn't wrong? I think that when a person questions and understand then maybe they can believe or not more peacefully but I wont feel blind in the belief even in you can't proof or see... but I need more than a answer of trust.... Who can we really trust?
Tell me how this makes sense to you...
Comments (53)
It's something I grapple with myself. You know however there are some Christians who reject trinitarianism. They are the historical Unitarians, before they lost their Christian identity altogether. Just a little tidbit for you.
Here's how it makes sense to me: each one of us has multiple facets. Each facet is uniquely us, but it's different. My interpretation is that the trinity embodies different facets of God, but each facet is uniquely God. Does that make sense?
@StatelessPilot@revelife - Well I get what you're saying. It's the same thing that the picture shows.
They are 3 separate beings but one in purpose. In my religion we use the tern Godhead to describe all 3 as being one in purpose. So when Jesus prayed in Gethsemane and on the cross, he was not praying to himself. He was praying to God the Father.
@TrainTrack - Explain more...
@pinktiger335 - What did I miss?
@TrainTrack - Can you go more in depth... I kind of get what you're saying (but I don't)... but I need more... Elaborate. please!!
@pinktiger335 - I am already asleep tonight (typing this in a dream) but let's discuss tomorrow...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
@TrainTrack - yea, ok... I guess you're sleep typing...
Some people get around this by saying Jesus was the Son of man, from the book of Daniel, but not necessarily a part of the Godhead, as Jews believe in a monotheistic God. Only one verse that I know of (in Psalm 2) even refers to reverencing "the son" and there it's not specified if it's the Son of God or the Son of man or a king or what.
I don't think the Trinity is anything to lose sleep over though. It's a mystery like the body and blood.
Well first off yes you must always search and question it's our gift to be able to ask and explore without it we would never get anywhere.
And as for the actual question well i'm in no way a christian or in fact any other religion (having never been exposed to one) and there are certain arguments for monotheists being mild polytheists I mean what are angels if not demi gods?
But My explanation for this rather confusing separate and single situation is that what is being described is actually ONE thing it's always one thing no matter what your dealing with even us 'god created man in his own image' to me that means we are part of god and he (or rather it) is part of us it's the same with the holy trinity 'God' (a formless energy) creates various different temporary separations so that it can have contrast, good and bad, light and dark in fact everything that has an opposite requires both it and it's opposite otherwise it cannot exist or interact with anything.
So all these various different versions of 'god' are infact just different aspects of the single energy expressing it's self for certain purposes.
All the 'sitting at his side' and that kind of thing to me sounds like a front end put on so that we can understand, for example a computer operating system allows us to interact with a field of electricity running through a bunch of components, to us it looks like 'windows' but in 'reality' it's just energy.
Thanks for the rec. on my site. Some day you will probably have a yard, garden and flowers. As for the trinity. Issues like that have become less and less important in life as I grow older. Spirituality remains important but most of the debated issues become less relevant.
"Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,"
i'm an outsider, so i shouldn't be commenting on something i don't know and don't understand..
just that line made me think, eternally begotten would imply that Adam and Eve have already encounter Jesus when they are in heaven, right?
i mean, eternally begotten would mean jesus is already there, and not only come into picture near to the time when he was sent down by god the father.. wait, that sentence made it sound like they are separate and two different entities.. that made me confused myself...
Its one of those mysteries of faith. If you believe in an omnipotent God, well, then, he can make it happen. Remember, God is everywhere at once in all times.
""Jesus Christ, the only Son of God,"
wait... after i read it again, this sentence should be altered if jesus is god..
@how2saveaplanet - I'm not loosing sleep over it... hahaha!! I'm curious... and I want to know how people explain this... There has to be a way people explain to believe it... idk maybe I'm being hopeful?
@BFB1131 - Very interesting...
@maniacsicko - exactly!! See my point ... lol and for you second part we can't say he is god all the way because he was still born after. So it's confusing and this is my point... hahaha!!
@Jewelbeetle - Yea, a true mystery indeed that no one gets or understands. I realize people say he's everywhere and he sees everything. But, that doesn't explain the trinity or the purpose or how they're all the same but not.
@vexations - thank you! I do hope to have a beautiful garden full of roses and life!!! And I agree with your statement as we grow older. I guess I'm in the phase where I want to know... just like a 4-6 yr olds question everything and motive. But in a grown up sense. There are so many things out there, I just want to know what I know is right, wrong, a certain path... I don't know if it makes sense.
Well I am a Unitarian. I believe that there is ONE god with different manifestations of God. I don't believe there are three distinct persons of God, in one God. I believe the Holy Spirit is God and is in Jesus. Jesus is a manifestation of God. Not separate from God. As for the right hand of God thing. I believe that IS in the Bible. And seeing as God is beyond our understanding, I believe we will see Both God and Jesus. Because Jesus is the face of God. Or that's what I believe. The aspect of the unity and the trinity is little of concern I believe. I don't think God much cares in how you perceive his three personalities. Well in my opinion, two personalities. Seeing as I believe there is no distinction between God and the Holy Spirit.
I did write a blog on this matter. If you'd like to look.
@ShamelessHope - Ok, I see kind of what you're saying. Yes, please send me the link.
I'm in now way in expert on any of this. I just have my beliefs.
Also a good source of information is the David Bernard debate. He's personally spoken at church functions I attend.
Look up "David Bernard oneness debate" on YouTube. Even if you don't watch the whole thing. Watch some.
LINK
Hello pink tigeress.
Some reassurance: The idea that three persons can also be one entity is impossible for humans to grasp because humans only have the experience of being one person in one bodily entity. However, just because humans cannot experience this three-persons-as-one-entity does not mean it cannot be true for someone who is not human. In other words we should not expect or demand God to be exactly like us--it is OK that He is different.
Before Jesus was born ("begotten") by Mary via the Holy Spirit, Jesus was "with God" and He "was God," having come "from God" (see John 1:1-2). Jesus was the same entity as God, the same spirit, but a separate personality living in that one spirit with the Father and the with Holy Spirit. If it helps to think of this way then consider, before Jesus was begotten into human form He and the Father and the Holy Spirit were all one Spirit of Holiness.
Every use of the word "begotten" in the New Testament in regard to Jesus simply references the fact that Jesus was born as a human to Mary. The phrase "eternally begotten" is not in the Scriptures but comes from early Christian creeds as their way of trying to show that Jesus was both human (i.e. begotten) and divine (i.e. eternal). Though I do not like the phrase "eternally begotten" I can appreciate that by its use the early church fathers were trying to demonstrate Jesus never stopped being God (that is, He never stopped proceeding from God) and that He never stopped also being human after He was born on earth.
The Trinity is a tough concept. But keep this in mind, nothing about God is truly understandable. No human can understand how it is that one entity, one God, can listen to and understand every secret prayer uttered on earth all at the same time, yet we know this to be true. God is always beyond our comprehension, but that does not mean God cannot be God, it means that God is that much greater than the mind of man. Who would want to trust and worship a God who was so ordinary and lacking in power that He was totally comprehensible?
@pinktiger335 - I'll be watching for an answer to that question. I don't think anybody can adequately explain it. What is the official church teaching on it?
@craigwbooth - Hey!!!! That explanation is damn good! I get it!
craigwbooth's explanation is good!
Pope John Paul II taught that God "in his deepest mystery is family." The Father, his Son and the love that binds them.
Notice the word "mystery". There is no way the human mind can comprehend the nature of God.
Another mystery is how the Word became flesh. How can God fit into a human body? Yet another mystery is how did Jesus do his miracles?
Mysteries are beyond the mind so we believe in them through faith.
But at the Jordan River when Jesus was baptized, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit were present.
So the mystery of the Trinity, though witnessed by men in the time of Jesus remains incomprehensible.
Saint Thomas Aquinas wrote, "Because man was subject to sin he is unable to apply his mind to that which is spiritual."
God is pure spirit, consequently we are unable to comprehend him. So his nature remains a mystery to us.
God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. They are three persons but they are one. You need to stop looking at it like a hierarchy - that's what makes it confusing in the first place. You should read "Shack" by Paul Young http://www.theshackbook.com/read.html
Understanding God and the trinity is beyond our comprehension. It's not a perfect analogy by far but H2O can exist as water, ice, or steam. Three completely different manifistations of H2O.
If you have questions can you do some Q&A with me?
@TrainTrack - On here in the post ? Sure let me re-read what you said... I haven't quite read everybody's to understand their points of view but I start with you.
@TrainTrack - See as of right now. It seems like what you said it similar to other responses about same purpose and one God it so seems so now I'm confused...I realize Jesus wouldn't be praying to himself but God the Father... so if he can't pray to himself, they're not the safe being? They're separate? And if they're separate even if the same purpose then there is more than one God?
@pinktiger335 - Treat the One in Purpose as One. There is one Godhead. But the members of the Godhead are distinct, separate beings. The have separate roles, too. Think of it like a father who gives his children all that he has. But he is still the Father. Jesus taught to pray to the father in the name of the son, so they are both included in prayer.
@craigwbooth - Ok, I think it's a better understanding and don't be offended with my comparison. Is the way you're explaining... Like a person of multiple personalities (just making a comparison) ... all identities in one but the same being?
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - Well I agree there is a lot of mystery which is I have questions to better understand faith. I know I can believe and have faith but there are just some things I like to ask to better understand what I am believing. I believe that God works in mysterious ways but why can't more things be explained. I understand the miracles and healing powers and so many things I actually don't question but this one has truly been on my mind for a couple months.
@Jewelbeetle - Thanks... yes, I think I understood his.
@bmojsilo - I guess I'm human for trying to have from order.But, I'm just trying to make sense in what I believe, I guess.
@TrainTrack - so they're not the same but so they're different? 2 gods?
@ShamelessHope - great I will look it up on Youtube when I go home later thanks.
@LSP1 - hmm ... interesting... Oh ok... I like this...
@pinktiger335 - "Mystery" is the word the Church uses for doctrines like the Trinity that are beyond comprehension.
Here is a LINK to an explanation of the Trinity by a Catholic encyclopedia at NewAdvent.org
@pinktiger335 - So same in purpose that they can be referred to as One (refer to that as the Godhead); but they are 3 distinct individuals acting as one Godhead
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - Great I will read...
@TrainTrack - ok, I need it to be reworded... I'm feeling dumb
Ok, so let's say say there is a person who who has multiple personalities... let's say 3... they are all separate but they all play out in the one person. Is that it? Or somewhere close... or did I just strike out?
From that Link: Moreover, our Lord's words, Matthew 11:27, "No one knoweth the Son, but the Father," seem to declare expressly that the plurality of Persons in the Godhead is a truth entirely beyond the scope of any createdintellect. The Fathers supply many passages in which the incomprehensibility of the Divine Nature is affirmed. St. Jerome says, in a well-known phrase: "The true profession of the mystery
of the Trinity is to own that we do not comprehend it" (De mysterio
Trinitatus recta confessio est ignoratio scientiae — "Proem ad 1. xviii
in Isai."). The controversy with the Eunomians, who declared that the Divine Essence was fully expressed in the absolutely simple notion of "the Innascible" (agennetos), and that this was fully comprehensible by the humanmind, led many of the GreekFathers to insist on the incomprehensibility of the Divine Nature, more especially in regard to the internal processions. St. Basil, Against Eunomius I.14; St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures VI; St. John Damascene, Of the Orthodox Faith I.2, etc.).
VERY good thinking...I have a friend who can probably help you. I'll send this post his way.
@NightCometh - thanks! =D
hey to many comments i usually read them befire i answer... but eh.... so this caught my eye and i was stumped.... i asked my mom yesterday for some guidance and if she understood this.... she told me that she once asked herself this question... she asked a woman who i love dearly... her name is Linda but my siblings and i call her mama. she explained it to my mom and my mom used her reference.... its so simple its complex.... (they said) "es como el huevo, tienes la cascara, lo blanco, y la llema, son tres partes del huevo las tres tienen diferentes nombre pero al final son el huevo".... this really did help me.... you can use diferent parts of the egg for different reasons but all in all its still an egg....
@Snoog420 - by a person who actually responded here and didn't want to be caught in a debate send me a PM and it has some videos well one of the actually talked about what you said...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNHVzeoKmVM go here and listen to what he said and start from minute 4 -15
i will once im on my computer... oh and my mother also told me its something like us... we r made up of three distinct part body,soul, and spirit.... .... although some may argue that sould and spirit are the same... thats why i used the egg example...
@pinktiger335 - Hey there pink tigeress.
Yes, a "multiple personalities" conceptualization is not entirely out of line, and may even be a helpful analogy, with many many warnings and cautions, of course.
In humans, having one physical brain, multiple personalities is aberrant and a defect, because we were not made to function with multiple personalities. But God, being one spirit with three persons, is by nature that way. It is not only healthy, but is His perfect condition.
Moreover, in humans, mutiple personalities do not "cooperate perfectly." In fact the multiple personalities form in people because of internal turmoil. With God, His three persons are in perfect harmony and cooperation. He is a perfect merging of three personalities in one entity, with all the advantages that implies and none of the imaginable drawbacks.
Surely that analogy has limitations, but it may be helpful to recognize what is going on with God. It is very necessary to recognize these three "persons" of God are more than just personalities, but fully developed persons in so much as they consult with each other, carry out each other's assignments, and help each other. They are, internally, a small perfect social community that reside in one entity.
@ShamelessHope - I think your link is broken... can you send it once again please.
@Snoog420 - Yea, I see what you're saying... and maybe you mean Body, soul and mind?
http://shamelesshope.xanga.com/752341843/i-am-in-no-way-an-expert-only-an-opinion/
And also don't forget to watch the David Bernard debate on yahoo(:
It helps a lot. It has both the oneness and the trinitarian view point.
Can I add. It's not relevant but I saw it on a comment.
It would be Body, Spirit, and Mind. The Soul and Mind are the same thing.
I meant to comment on this entry a couple of days ago. I'm looking at all of the comments here on the page and from many of them I keep hearing the word or phrase "it's a mystery". So let me ask you this.
Do you think you've gotten a successful or better yet a satisfying answer...or are you still confused?
I ask this because I'm not confused. Why? Because as a professed Christian, I do not believe in the Trinity doctrine...and I have good reason as to why...if you'd like to know.
@bluepillorredpill - I hate the world "mystery" because it just makes me feel cheated from an explanation. Only one response on here kind of made me see a little of what they mean... Although, I also found another explanation that a friend gave me to me more plausible which would go completely against what I believe but it makes more sense.
As for successful no not really... most try and answer in way they think will be easy and then end up confuse in their wording without realization. I'm always open to hear a new perspective.
What do you mean professed Christian? And I would love to hear why you don't believe ...
I thought most of Christianity believed in the trinity?
@pinktiger335 - Here--> LINK
@bluepillorredpill - thanks!
edit: I couldn't see you link. Add me as a friend please. I would appreciate it. thanks!
@pinktiger335 - Oh, I forgot I was on friends lock! My bad!
@bluepillorredpill - haha, it's no problem. Thanks! =D
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